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[legal] September 2014 update on legal

Discussion in 'Legal' started by bossland, Sep 13, 2014.

  1. bossland

    bossland Administrator

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    There where few court appointments since the last legal update,

    lets give a short overview:

    Munich, LG I - countersuit of Blizzard vs Bossland GmbH

    Main Issue - intice of contract breach

    Here the court had to decide weither there was a contract between Blizzard aus us or not, while on our suit the court declined that a contract exists, on the countersuit the court tended to believe that there was a contract. This should be all needed to know, as next step here is the appeal to a higher court.


    Leipzig, LG I - suit of Blizzard vs me personally

    Main Issue - private liability

    Here we had 2 hearings over the time, and while the court could not see any private liability during the whole hearings, we where really surprised, how the court moved its oppinion, based on the last 5 minutes of the last hearing. There the court, listening for hours to Blizzard lawyers, visible bugged because of the many repeats and repeats why i am an shady person, decided to ask Blizzard lawyers why they do not simply withdraw the usage of the licence of usage to me and Bossland GmbH. So with the end of the hearing we where pretty sure, that we will win this case, but weeks later when the written judgement arrived, it said basically this:

    Bossland(me) is not liable at all, bla .. bla bla, BUT since we told you to end the licence with Bossland, now Bossland is liable from that day on, for copyright infringement based on the usage of WOW and or D3 through him and or his employees. Obviously a judge has to stay neutral, and what he did, we do not agree with, so this ruling also has been appealed to a higher court.


    And as you already know, there where this 2 cases on the higher court in Hamburg, Hanseatisches Oberlandesgericht.

    OLG Hamburg - suit Blizzard vs Bossland GmbH

    Main issue - Diablo 3 Auction houses

    While we got an interim injunction, that forbids us sales in Germany, it was send to the court before we even had a product on the market, and the court accepted it, the lower court got all his arguments based on a probable affect of our bots on the auction houses. And thats how they decided. We appealed, and now since the main reason was gone, the auction houses, we believed we would have a better chance to prove our point.

    We where thinking wrong, as in an interim injunction you basically do not need to prove anything, just to make the court believe, it is this way, the court agreed with Blizzard. This means that we still can not sell Demonbuddy in Germany. Now the interim injunction went to its highest appeal and is over therefore, this makes the way free for the normal case, which should be apointed somewhen next year, there Blizzard has to prove any actual damages.

    The interesting fact here tho was that the judges do not belive that there is any intice of contract breach.


    OLG Hamburg - suit Blizzard vs Bossland GmbH the second

    Main issue - World of Warcraft fairplay/contract breach/infair competition

    We had 2 hearings one after the next one this day, 10th September 2014. So with WoW it was nearly the same, the court did not see any intice of contract breach, but believed, obviously based on no evidence, and i mean no evidence, if i describe comments on Amazon and Forum Posts, this is what Blizzard added to show the court how bad bots are, not Demonbuddy just bots, cheats, hacks, dupes. However we could not win this case either. But we have a chance that the judges will allow us to go into appeal to the Supreme Court of Germany


    All in all, what we believe is, that we can or could not convince the judges of the courts, that what we do is not shady nor illegal. It is a service that users need and it does not harm the games, it even makes them better and brings Blizzard even higher revenues. Meanwhile our lawyers joined a bigger law firm, we have now a manpower of 3 lawyers dedicated to our cases.

    But in the end this is all about contract breach - we do not see any contract between uns and Blizzard, about incide of contract breach between Blizzard and their customers - we do not see how we would have forced anyone to do it, unfair competition - we do not see how the competition is unfair at all, we do not see any competition to begin with, since once you bought the product of Blizzyrd, only then you think about buying a bot or not, by then Blizzard made his money, especially with Diablo 3, but also most likely with WoW the bot users are even convinced to stay longer in the game and pay therefore even more to Blizzard with the monthly subs.


    The written rulings about the last 2 cases, should reach us somewhen around the first week of November 2014. We have not won anything until now, but the alligations topple with each step we make to an higher court, more and more of the charges Blizzard made in their suit get dropped by the courts.
     
  2. roboto

    roboto Well-Known Member Buddy Store Developer

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    keep it up, you can win this one!
    all the best!
     
  3. friesengeist

    friesengeist New Member

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    translation in german pls :)
     
  4. tataros

    tataros New Member

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    Now take my comment on this forum to the court :)

    "Blizzard are you fucking out of your mind? The moment honorbuddy pause to exist and not a same quality bot is around, bye bye from me. Also I did not yet bought WoD because of the warden update and with the fear that either my account will be banned or honorbuddy got detected and useless. So say thanks to the Honorbuddy that you get my money".
     
  5. p644kd

    p644kd New Member

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    I hope things go In your favor. Good luck guys!
     
  6. Birdman

    Birdman New Member

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    Same here, if they get rid of Honorbuddy I'll lose any desire to play and ask for a refund from blizz asap
     
  7. Weird0

    Weird0 New Member

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    same here, and also i will and try to get as much money back via paypal as is possble by filing disputes for any and all payments
     
  8. Owneth

    Owneth Member

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    I hope Blizzard actually loses in court. It's about time they stop the blatant abuse of power they have via a fat wallet. Sometimes money can't buy everything. I hope the courts in Germany see it this way also! It sickens me to listen to their lack of detail when they ban an account, and the lies and manipulation put forth by the teams.

    I multiboxed (NOT BOTTED) on 6 accounts. 1 was dormant, not even doing a single dungeon or anything! They banned it, and 1 other account but didn't ban 4 others? EXCUSE ME? Then I ask why they did it? They "claim" 3rd party apps or hacks... Not ANY of which turned out to be true or they'd have ALL of my accounts banned. I got 1 of 2 banned back, the supervisor over there really was not a prick and did his best. He claims he had proof I botted, but I again explained to him... if that's the case why would I bot 1 account out of 6? Why wouldn't I just bot all 6? Why wouldn't I bot 5? He never responded!

    So the claims they put forth are ASSUMPTIVE! There is no proof you bot or don't. Just because I'm a customer doesn't make me a botter! See I can sit here and manipulate them into thinking I bot when I really don't! And I don't anymore! I just support the botting community cause I can't trust or support a company that LIES to their customer and their player base!

    Blizzard... You're going to lose. Hands down! THERE IS NO CONTRACT with you and BOSSLAND or their company! You fucking crooks!


    State Bar of CA :: Rod Anthony Rigole = Rod Rigole (Blizzard's General Council)

    There can be complaints made if he's not following the laws of our nation and international laws... Just saying! I would hate to see him get disbarred for blatant abuse of power of attorney...
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  9. Mario27

    Mario27 Banned

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    we all should go to the court with honorbuddy tshirt:)
     
  10. ManFriday

    ManFriday New Member

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    Without the use of HB and the routines supplied by some good people i would be physically unable to play. I lost a few fingers while serving in the armed forces and i cannot play the game like i could when i started with 10 fingers. I for one will cancel my Subscription the moment Honour Buddy ceases to exist. I'm sure if Blizzard thought about this they would agree that leaving us alone would be more financially beneficial to them as i would think that hundreds if not thousands of players will cancel Subs too. So for them a potential monthly loss of 10's of thousands of euros. Also it could have a knock on effect.. some ppl are end game raiding with HB so with the loss those players, guilds potentially have to stop raiding and may even cause cancelled subs from those players. And all of this for the sake of wanting to put Bossland out of business when it is only helping Blizzard keep ppl playing. They are fucking retarded if that is they way they work. Anyway the best of good Fortune to you Bossland. Kick their fucking arses for all us and put them in their place once and for all.
     
  11. jackalj

    jackalj New Member

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    I'm don't really understand the laws on these matters but can somebody explain to me why Bossland is doing okay in these lawsuits? Haven't they created a 3rd party program that is in violation with blizz's rules? Again I don't know much about the laws covering this sort of stuff but I'm just surprised Honor Buddy is still here.
     
  12. elMonstro

    elMonstro New Member

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    Blizzard's rules aren't law. Government rules are. There is nothing illegal about creating bots. Its only against terms of service of some company, those have nothing to do with law.
     
  13. Xarian

    Xarian Member

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    Laws surround contracts, a terms of service is a contract.

    This whole lawsuit is regarding this contract

    "government" laws clearly state a breach of contract comes with liabilities, this is what this case is here to determine, if there was a breach of contract(a breach of the terms of service) if there was, then HB can say baaaaai baaaai.
     
  14. mahe4

    mahe4 Member

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    and what contract would that be?
    i as user have a contract with blizzard.
    bossland does not.
    that simple.
    only mentally retarded judges can't see this!
     
  15. Xarian

    Xarian Member

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    Why would Bossland not have a contract with them, in order to reverse the client he must be ingame, so he obviously signed the contract.

    The question is whether or not the contract can be upheld against a company, or individuels, if a contract signed by several people in an attempt to create a commercial product, holds a company liably bound by contract.

    Your not a lawyer, you speak of what your logic tells you, we all know law is not as simple as logic. I am not here to say whether the contract is valid or not, neither are you, and neither is Bossland, theres a reason this is in court, to figure out if it is and as it stands right now NO ONE KNOWS.
     
  16. DaSoul

    DaSoul Well-Known Member

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    Who said that they are reverse engineering the client? If they would, bossland would sit in jail since ages.
    Doing something against an EULA isn't illegal. There is no law saying botting is illegal(at least for me in germany), therefore it can't be illegal. How hard can it be to understand this.
     
  17. Xarian

    Xarian Member

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    No he would not.

    Reverse engineering in itself is not illegal. The surpreme court in the US has several times stated that reverse engineering is an important way of dissemination of production and /or ideas which helps innovation. The surpreme courts of europe have expressed the same stance.

    Specifically in the computer and hardware world, most courts, leave it to the contract between the software distributer, and the product created by the use of reverse engineering because laws on reverse engineering are not clear, and reverse engineering is a very important part of software development(herein AVs and other types of software)

    This is a common misunderstanding, if reverse engineering was borderline illegal, this court case Bossland has going right now would not exist.

    As i stated above, a breach of contract is actually "illegal" and the contract here is the terms of service by Blizzard. The court case here is to determine whether a contract was legally binding between Bossland personally, and his company. This is not something that is debatable, contracts if deemed binding, at breach, holds you liable for damages set in said contract, thats a legal issue. It is not a "crime" or a "felony" but it is unlawful.
     
  18. DaSoul

    DaSoul Well-Known Member

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    As far as i know, based on European Law, you are allowed to reverse engineer programs you bought, as long as it is for private use. If you are using it for commercial activities, it's not allowed.

    But please, correct me if i'm wrong.
     
  19. Xarian

    Xarian Member

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    You are correct, but these are for exploitive motives, an example would be reversing some kind of security measure to gain access to a database, or exploiting software to release it in its original form.

    However, reversing software or any other kind of material in order to gain knowledge to produce a commercial product yourself(such as Honorbuddy) is not black and white illegal. The end product that came from reversing the source, does not even remotely relate.

    A lot of technology now a days is rebranded names of alternative ways of the same source tech, which was simply reversed to allow knowledge on how to do it, this is particularly important in software development. The difference between legal and illegal here is more focused on whether or not the end result of the reverse engineering is copyright infringement, or straight up "hacking".

    This is not the case here, so the matter falls to the contract which is what Blizzard is suing for.
     
  20. A1l3n

    A1l3n New Member

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    Wait so what contract did you break with blizzard? Last I checked a TOS isn't a contract and isnt liable in any court in the US unless you have a sig. But then again glider lost in the US due to a corrupt group blizzard payed off to say DMC which was complete bullshit. Blizzard needs to stop bankrolling people in court and focus on a plan to do something about the bots VIA WARDEN! if they don't like bots. So glad I didn't take the job as a GM for WoW and kept botting. Fuck this company.
     

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