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  • Not another EB is ending post

    Discussion in 'Archives' started by tozededao, Apr 17, 2016.

    1. tozededao

      tozededao Community Developer

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      Being a follower of both Pushedx since Silkroad and Buddy since honorbuddy 1.0 where you had to create your own meshes I have a few things to say related to EB.

      In my opininon ExileBuddy never followed a rational goal. Everything it tried to do was too ambitious in terms of expectations waiting for the community to bring features and plugins as if we already had a big community built and people ready to build them.

      When a bot is built majorly as an API with little to no outofthebox features 95% of the users, which are the people who want stuff that works out of the box will not buy the bot. I have no doubt that ExileBuddy is the most complete and well designed BuddyBot in terms of base structure. But as I said, if it just works as an API no one will buy it.

      You want people to buy the bot? Introduce yourself core features, dont expect core features to be implemented by the community
      • Make the bot quest, dont wait for someone to build and support a plugin. Someone comes up with a better questing solution? Great, you still need to have your own as core.
      • New features get introduced, build the API for it but also build the bot feature for it. Masters were implemented ages ago and still no official support. Same for strongboxes

      This is the reason why EB has no sales. The bot is designed for a few % of the possible target. It is sad that the other shitty PoE bot has way more users than EB. The reason? Works out of the box.
       
    2. Tormiasz

      Tormiasz Community Developer

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      They closed the bot for not only finnancial reasons, but because it consumes too much of pushedx and would require 2 devs to handle it properly. And what you propose is adding more work for the core dev. Anyway it's gone already, you won't change Buddy Staff decision.
       
    3. tozededao

      tozededao Community Developer

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      Because they are adding support for features instead of features. We have support for 1000 features and 0 features built in. Why continue to develop API and RE for stuff that we don't even have people using yet? Why not doing it sequentially?

      We need feature A -> develop API to support feature A -> develop feature A
      We neeed feature B -> ......

      95% of the people don't buy the bot because the bot has a support to build a feature, they buy the bot because it already has that feature.
       
    4. Tormiasz

      Tormiasz Community Developer

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      That's why Community Dev's are here. The bot gives you the API, you need to make use of it. And there are already plugins that supports 99% of people's needs. And that's what plugins are for. If Buddy will develop built-in funtionality for running maps or doing quests it's going to be closed source like OldGrindBot. This way you won't have the chance to edit the files for your needs. Look at the competitor of ExileBuddy. It's simple and has most of the functionality built-in, but you can't expand the functionality by yourself or change anything.
      There will be 2 Buddy developers working on EB now, we'll see their roadmap, what are their plans. But I personally like to have control of everything the bot is doing, I'm not tied to what developers offered me.
       
    5. Infinite Monkeys

      Infinite Monkeys Community Developer

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      Completely agree, relying on the community to make the bot functional is a bad idea when the community barely exists because the bot has no features.

      OldGrindBot isn't closed source? Bossland GmbH is a business that brings in six or seven digit sums a year, and they are relying on unpaid volunteers to make their product functional. There are several problems with this:

      1) New users see a bot without the features they want built in, and are put off. This is probably a large factor in the bot's small community.
      2) Plugins take a long time to update after each bot update, during which time the bot is barely functional and certainly worse than its main competitor.
      3) Adding and configuring a bunch of plugins makes the bot seem shoddy, like you're just stringing a bunch of third party scripts together and hoping they don't clash. For example, to configure looting properly you need to set up both the inbuilt loot plugin and AIF correctly, with no conflicting settings.
      4) The plugins aren't even all in the same forum, you need to search through at least 3 forums to find the plugins that are basically required, and for new people it'd be easy to miss one and not even know it existed.
      5) As there's no financial incentive to release plugins publicly, there are lots of private plugins that are shared within a small circlejerky group and don't benefit 95% of users. Ironically, keeping these plugins private drives away users and makes the bot worse/unavailable for the circlejerk crew in the long run.
      6) Major features (Masters and running sac shards spring to mind) are unavailable because nobody's been motivated enough to make plugins that do it for free.
      7) The API documentation for EB is extremely poor, to the extent that I still have no idea what some function arguments do since there's zero documentation on it (eg. the bool argument for UseAt()), making it very difficult for people (particularly newcomers) to contribute even if they want to.
      8) The new system for installing plugins is more annoying and complicated for devs than the old one, and offers no tangible advantages.
      9) Implementing or modifying a GUI is a total pain in the ass, requiring code to be added in 5 places to 3 separate files (around 22 lines in total) just to get one variable that's editable via text box or slider.

      All of these came off the top of my head, I'm sure there are arguments that can be made against some of them but you get the point.

      e: Meant as constructive criticism, not a rant!
       
      Last edited: Apr 19, 2016
    6. botelho

      botelho Member

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      You are just delusional, using ExileBuddy without any third party plugin is still better than the competition by a large margin.
       
      Last edited: Apr 19, 2016
    7. DontBeAfraid

      DontBeAfraid Active Member

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      not really to be honest. The build-in lootfilter is outdated and cant handle most tasks really.
      You can't run maps, you can't use movement skills, you cant autoconvert currency.. and so much more.

      EB beats the competitor one by a lot, but only with the public API and the from that resulting community plugins. without it's actually worthless.
       
    8. botelho

      botelho Member

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      Maybe for some1 who doenst thrive to have an efficient bot the competitor can be enough. Not for me.
       
    9. Tony

      Tony "The Bee" Staff Member Moderator

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      well,as a community developer you are,if you feel like an unpaid volunteer that Bossland Gmbh takes advantage of you i could release you from your Com Dev "duties".

      we need happy people,not unhappy volunteers


      let me know plz :)
       
      Last edited: Apr 19, 2016
    10. DocBrown

      DocBrown Member

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      Nvm
       
      Last edited: Apr 19, 2016
    11. Infinite Monkeys

      Infinite Monkeys Community Developer

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      I didn't say I was personally unhappy with volunteering my time, I chose to because I enjoy writing code and solving problems then seeing my bot work better because of it - it's part of the fun for me. My point is that I don't think it's a viable model, because not enough people seem to feel the same way so there are important plugins missing. If you really want to "demote" me for giving my honest opinion, that's up to you, but I don't feel like I was insulting or unfair.
       
    12. Puff

      Puff New Member

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      No offense Tony, you're kinda being part of the problem. Your customer service skills suck. No one is asking you to buy them dinner, just maybe just offer some lube before we get fucked.
       
    13. toNyx

      toNyx Well-Known Member

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      No, he's in fact right, look at my name, you don't see any tag right? The reason is simple, If anyone can have it, I don't want it. And I still don't want it, the way they deliver it is just insane, someone modifies 2 lines in an existing code they get the tag. monkey has always been toxic concerning Exilebuddy, even tho he was "CommunityDev" for it.

      Tony is doing its best on forums, throwing a thread like "EB support is ending" is really hard to maintain/moderate, consider the rage people will share. Ive never had any issues with Tony, I'm myself a Tony so we're the best and we know it, mistakes were made during this episode, but when you have no choice, you have no other way.
       
    14. Hawker

      Hawker Well-Known Member Buddy Core Dev

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      A lot of us botters are coders who love watching their creations control the game and do clever stuff. I coded Glider combat routines for WoW for free for years and loved the whole experience. Our Bossland bots will always offer an API because making code for bots is intense and fun (for those of us into that kind of thing at least) and having a platform to release to public and get feedback makes it even better. We are not relying on volunteers - we are offering people who enjoy coding and enjoy PoE an enhanced experience.

      I do appreciate that you intend to be constructive. Perhaps it would surprise you to find that I mostly agree. Exilebuddy has struggled because there was simply too much work for one person, Pushedx, but not enough revenue to even cover that person. We have hired ExVault to help create a better user experience and we have faith that as the bot improves over the next three months, the business situation will improve as well.
       
    15. Infinite Monkeys

      Infinite Monkeys Community Developer

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      That's good to hear, thanks for not just jumping on me :) I think all that really needs to change is vital plugins (eg MapRunner and AIF/some other looting system) being packaged with the bot, and full API information being provided to users. Making the bot more welcoming to newcomers and coding for the bot more forgiving for new devs would go a long way.
       
    16. Dbuddy

      Dbuddy Member

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      - Mapping
      - Loot Filtering/Selling
      - some Ban-Protection/randomizing/hiding

      is everything we need at the moment.

      if this is still too much we could even discard mapping.


      like i said before: A plain grind bot isn't worth more than 3-5€/month.
       
    17. toNyx

      toNyx Well-Known Member

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      To make the bot more "friendly" they would have to prepare some usable functions, very clear and with advanced logic. We're currently working on a set of function that can be used by anyone (well, need a bit of c# understanding still) and cover most of the common things you could use in a plugin. (Stash interactions, items interaction, inventory interactions, npc interactions...) Most of the upcoming plugin updates will rely on this library, you'll be able to dig through the code to understand how things are used. It's not from the buddyteam but it's enough for now, + we got pushedx's support on few things which makes it pretty much flawless.

      Mapping will probably get integrated soon by exvault,
      Loot filter is probably not a priority since AIF "is out" (update time sigh) but may be reconsidered later i guess,
      Ban protection is usually a plugin located between the chair and the keyboard, not sure it's fixable in application-level stuff. (Kappa)

      Not sure you're in a good shape to tell a grind bot isnt worth more than 5 bucks, especially when you don't consider the size of the API.

      But well, people are free to think whatever they want.
       
      Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
    18. tozededao

      tozededao Community Developer

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      I'm not saying it is better, I'm saying that the competition offers more features than ExileBuddy, ExileBuddy has 10000000000000x times more potential but as I said, largest ammount of people buy for its features.

      Bot sells for its features thats what it is advertised:


      • 3 Sessions - 1 Month
      • Farming on Act 1-4, fully clearing areas
      • Efficient town runs and stash
      • Intelligent loot filters
      • Works with Windows Vista - W8
      • Easy to setup
      This is what the customers see of the bot before buying it.
      You expect mapping, but you can't announce it because you dont have that feature(it is done by a plugin)
      Intelligent loot filters, very vague and cliche, what is Intelligent?
      Fully Clearing Areas, super ineficient clear algorithm, specially knowing that EB has access to the full map beforehand because it decrypts it, as the old mapviewer allowed us to see.

      I'm not gonna paste competitor's features but I ask you to watch them. If you just look at the features its easy for people to not choose EB.
       
    19. ihacknewbies

      ihacknewbies Member

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      So I actually disagree a lot. When EB shut down I opted to go with the competition because I already made a hardware investment.

      EB was clearing 17% faster with less deaths and had better basic loot filtering.

      EB also kept a basic pattern to its clears so if you had to avoid certain bosses it was rather easy playing with the clear % vs the competition taking side to side instead of squaring approach which makes mob avoidance much more difficult while maintaining a decent clear %(at least for dried lake). This also makes it seem more human imo because humans follow patterns typically, not the closest off screen mob.

      I also was able to set up EB within a couple hours vs a couple days of the competitor. Even so the combat mechanics on the competitor are much, much worse

      The only thing the competitor really has on it is update speed and it looks a little more human like. But it's not that stable and hasn't been able to run for over 9 hours at a time for me without crashing.
       
    20. Dgc2002

      Dgc2002 Member

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      Botting in RuneScape back in 2001 is where I started programming. I'm now a professional(I hate using that term though) software developer. In reality I've never really cared about getting in-game currency/levels/whatever from botting. I've just always found it interesting to automate the process and see how well I could do it.

      So thank you for keeping that aspect in mind.
       

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